tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post3548070148434093963..comments2023-04-29T07:23:25.825-04:00Comments on Jay Fields' Thoughts: Targeted LanguagesJayhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14491442812573747680noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post-24910046866571419472008-12-10T11:58:00.000-05:002008-12-10T11:58:00.000-05:00I wouldn't say it's just a frameworks issue. It's ...I wouldn't say it's just a frameworks issue. It's more of just using what makes sense based on the job being done.<BR/><BR/>Each language has frameworks, tools, integration stories, etc.<BR/><BR/>While they are similar languages, they are quite different when you get to the details.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post-62140980260659850682008-12-10T11:19:00.000-05:002008-12-10T11:19:00.000-05:00Both Python and Ruby in the same shop is interesti...Both Python and Ruby in the same shop is interesting?<BR/>Is this for certain frameworks that are only available in that language?danhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07444649467291801518noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post-50917457841305148352008-12-10T05:29:00.000-05:002008-12-10T05:29:00.000-05:00IDEs aren't useless, they make the life easier for...IDEs aren't useless, they make the life easier for some and they are good at some things. The class-browser is a good example of such a thing.<BR/><BR/>Personally I prefer a physical file-view though, with filenames representing the classes. I can do about everything an IDE can do and much more by writing (often re-usable) one-liners on the command line.<BR/><BR/>I've been using the command line as the primary way of interacting with my computer for about 20 years (Linux since 1996 and the Amiga before that) and I have yet to find a single IDE that doesn't just feel like it's limiting me and holding me back from what is possible.<BR/><BR/>I like a smorgasbord of small tools, each one doing only a few things but doing them great.<BR/><BR/>What annoys me is the common disregarding of fantastic new technologies just because they lack integration with VisualStudio/Eclipse/whatever or they don't have fancy Next-Next-Next-Finish-wizards. It's so limiting.Tuxiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256735395978506779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post-26677571443713500822008-12-10T04:39:00.000-05:002008-12-10T04:39:00.000-05:00Tuxie,I can certainly agree with your wish for cle...Tuxie,<BR/><BR/>I can certainly agree with your wish for cleaner languages/APIs. However, I don't think it's a binary issue: A clean language => IDE is useless. A Bad language => IDE is helpful. There's a vast grey area between these two extremes.<BR/><BR/>I don't know what you think about Smalltalk, but many see it as a clean language. Much of Smalltalk's productivity gain is due to its built-in class browser.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15900841850889743147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post-52621049894945594612008-12-10T04:13:00.000-05:002008-12-10T04:13:00.000-05:00I'm saying that IDEs will help you when you're usi...I'm saying that IDEs will help you when you're using verbose, designed-by-committee languages and APIs, but they are usually overkill (and get in your way) when you use expressive languages and simpler but more niched API.Tuxiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256735395978506779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post-34697378248822675762008-12-10T03:21:00.000-05:002008-12-10T03:21:00.000-05:00Tuxie,Are you also saying that "No IDE will help y...Tuxie,<BR/><BR/>Are you also saying that "No IDE will help you become a better programmer if you *do* understand the code" ?!Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15900841850889743147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post-52040030904521397662008-12-10T03:10:00.000-05:002008-12-10T03:10:00.000-05:00Tools are for tools.Seriously though, using a big ...Tools are for tools.<BR/><BR/>Seriously though, using a big and complicated IDE can be good to compensate for the shortcomings and verbosity of Java, C++ and similar languages. Not surprisingly, most of the "tools! must have tools!"-crowd seem to come from that group of developers. Also, they usually are trained code monkeys and have programming only as their profession, not as a hobby and they aren't passionate about it.<BR/><BR/>Here's a truth: No IDE will help you become a better programmer if you don't understand the code. Maybe you will manage to create something that works most or even all of the time, but if you don't fully <I>understand</I> programming you are bound to hit the front page of thedailywtf sooner or later, and those who are trying to maintain your code later will probably rather commit suicide.<BR/><BR/>If you want quality code, nothing beats a passionate Emacs/Vim (or TextMate/whatever) using nerd with mad UNIX skills when s/he is fully allowed to use the right tools for the job. (Yes, there are exceptions)<BR/><BR/>The biggest problem with today's software industry is all the behind-the-scenes "magic" causing "programmers" to not <I>understand</I> what they are doing.Tuxiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05256735395978506779noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post-47063474922957246742008-12-10T01:35:00.000-05:002008-12-10T01:35:00.000-05:00I wonder how tooling support will affect this proc...I wonder how tooling support will affect this process. A targeted language may be better in a certain domain but without the proper tools the developers may be less productive than they were with (say) Java.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps, this factor will help in striking the balance you're mentioning.<BR/><BR/>Moreover, it seems that language designers should provide better support for IDE integration. Or, conversely, that IDEs will finally offer a good abstraction that will allow language specific plug-ins to be easily written. <BR/><BR/>Coming to think about it, it means that we are actually waiting for a targeted language for IDEs, which will provide good support for targeted languages.... :)Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15900841850889743147noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-12467669.post-1769104951228417672008-12-09T21:03:00.000-05:002008-12-09T21:03:00.000-05:00There is another part to consider here. What about...There is another part to consider here. What about developers who choose specific languages for the sake of limiting their field?<BR/><BR/>I now that I have done that. I chose a language because I knew what the field was for it and I figured I did not want to go out of the field. For example, even though I am well versed in Java and have plenty of experience in it, I have dropped it from my resume'. I have done the same for visual basic for the same reasons. I am not interested in the fields that these languages tend to be used in.<BR/><BR/>Just a thought.w3bsmithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11926018172574808162noreply@blogger.com